INTERVIEW-Garang urges “real transformation” to succeed peace

RUMBEK, southern Sudan, May 24, 2005 (Sudan Tribune) — Former Sudanese rebel leader, John Garang, has said the country needs “real transformation” if development is to be realized and the peace agreement signed in January is to succeed.

Sudan’s First Vice President Ali Osman Mohamed Taha (L) and Sudan People’s Liberation Movement leader John Garang show the signed peace accord at a ceremony in Kenya’s capital Nairobi, January 9, 2005. (Reuetrs).

He also defended the just-ended civil war terming it one of “liberation”.

In an interview from the southern Sudan town of Rumbek, Garang also denied that his Sudan People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM) ever used children as fighters.

He absolved the unity government, being contemplated, from the alleged Darfur war crimes saying these were perpetrated by a different government.

The following is the text of Garang’s interview by Mustafa Sirri published by London-based newspaper Al-Sharq al-Awsat on 24 May; subheadings inserted editorially:

– What makes you confident that the peace agreement between you and the Sudanese government will become stable?

Garang: That is a good question because most of the past agreements were revoked and I believe you know that Abel Alier (the southern Sudanese vice-president during Numayri’s rule) wrote a book he titled “Invalidating the Pledges and Charters”. Yet despite all this, the agreement cannot be invalidated because there are “automatic guarantees” and because it is different.

– Can you explain these guarantees?

Garang: The most important thing about these guarantees is that they do no depend on persons or the other party as in the past. They also include the fact that the Sudanese People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM) has the right to keep its army during the transitional period and this is the biggest guarantee. Anyone who wants to invalidate this agreement will hesitate. There is another guarantee, which is the south that has real powers. No government in Khartoum can dissolve or bring down the government in the south, like it happened in the past. The distribution of wealth is also a major guarantee.

We have real independence. The budget of the southern government and the employees’ salaries will not come from Khartoum. We have our financial resources from oil revenues, the taxes that are collected, and so forth. International aid will also reach the south directly and not through Khartoum.

In addition to all this, there are international guarantees and we have in this agreement forces from the UN that will be present during the six transitional years. Therefore I do not believe that anyone can invalidate this agreement and also believe that anyone who tries will be like one carrying out a suicide action.

“We are starting from point zero”

– You are now moving to government after 22 years of war. What are your priorities?

Garang: All right. As you saw in Rumbek ,southern Sudan, which you visited several times, an effort was made during the past months. But we are starting from point zero. There is nothing in the infrastructure, especially the economic one. Our priorities therefore are to lay down the foundations for government in the south. What I call the infrastructure for government in the south is to form the 10 provinces’ governments, civil administrations, civil police, the rule of law, and the achievement of stability.

The infrastructure in the economy and reconstruction that we already started is the building of roads that link the southern provinces. As you know, the area of the south is equal to the combined areas of Kenya and Uganda. Roads will link the south to the north and to neighbouring countries like Kenya. We have made great strides in building roads to the latter’s border and it is the same with Uganda. The road to it is almost complete. Roads will also link the south to Ethiopia and the DRCongo and this is in addition to the railroads with the north and other extensions with Kenya and Uganda.

We in the south have not seen development from the time God created Adam and Eve. Therefore, the work requires great efforts in the infrastructures and foundations, like water supplies, electricity, communications and social services, especially education. We have called on all the children to go to schools. All children who are of education age will go to schools during the next six years. Our interest will also focus on health services, especially as there are many diseases in the south. We will benefit from the oil revenues and the other resources of the south, like agriculture that has not seen investments for a very long time. We will therefore use the oil revenues for agricultural development and training human cadres.

We have displaced persons and refugees and they have started to return and there are no buildings to settle them in. This is going to create security problems in the south. There are around three million displaced Sudanese in the northern areas or southern cities and we have one million refugees in neighbouring countries who have started to return. But we have not received any of the aid that the international community promised us and this makes us rely on our own resources, which are few, and this will create security problems, especially in the competition for resources.

“We will triumph in the battle of turning into a political party”

– Citizens have high aspirations under these conditions you mentioned. How will respond to and manage these aspirations?

Garang: Yes, our people’s aspirations are really high and we have the ability to meet them once we form the new government in the south and the central government. We have been exerting our efforts to meet the people’s requirements even before reaching and forming the government. We are now making the citizens turn their attention to production instead of relying on relief and to building our own productive economy by the citizens themselves. I believe we can manage the citizens’ aspirations.

– You have a greater challenge before you, namely, how to turn the SPLM that relied on guerrilla warfare into a political party after 22 years of war?

Garang: Yes, we fought like guerrillas for more than 21 years and we are now celebrating the 22nd anniversary of the establishment of the people’s army and the SPLM. I believe this will be our last celebration in the jungle. We will triumph in the battle of turning into a political party like we triumphed in all our wars. We went through difficult and harsh periods and still triumphed. We fought for 21 years for our rights and were able to get them. The war ended with the signing of the peace agreement.

The SPLM saw a major split in 1991. But the leaders who split returned to our ranks and we were united again. The greater challenge for us starts on 9 January 2005 (the date of signing the peace) and ends on 6 January 2011 (the end of the transitional six years period). This period will see the referendum on self-determination for the southerners and will therefore be the most difficult because the referendum will be over the choices of unity or secession.

There is another stage, that of the post-2011 one. Though we do not know the result of the referendum that will precede it, we will continue our struggle through peaceful means with the same ferocity with which we fought the war. We will turn into a political party in all Sudan because we want to change all of Sudan and have to start with ourselves by becoming an effective political movement. I assert to you that we can sweep the elections in all of Sudan.

We are at present training our cadres and developing the skills. When citizens carry out wrong actions, they do not do so because they want to but because they lack the skills. This will be corrected with all sorts of training. We will turn the people’s army elements into active cadres in the civil service. There are several structures for absorbing them. As you know, the army was present in the villages among the citizens and there were several complaints. We have now issued strict orders to every soldier to return to the people’s army camps. In the past, their presence in the villages was justified, especially as they did not have food. But we can now provide them with food. These forces will have salaries once the government is formed.

Insecurity

– But there is an absence of security in several areas that are under the SPLM’s control. I heard that Rumbek itself is in the same position. How are you handling this issue, especially as this state of security indiscipline began after the signing of the agreement?

Garang: It is true that there are security indiscipline and instability but we are just emerging from a long and fierce war. We achieved peace through the agreement with the Khartoum government and are now working to hold meetings between the sultans (leaders of southern tribes) and the people’s army commanders to deal with this indiscipline. I believe the reason is the scarcity of food, both for the people’s army and the citizens. We will investigate and try those who are proved to be involved in looting from the people who have suffered too much during the war and we will compensate them.

– What is the number of your forces? Are you going to reduce them?

Garang: I myself do not know their number. The agreement stipulates the reduction in the forces on both sides. If the other starts by reducing its forces by 30 per cent, then we will do the same percentage. There are joint forces from both sides numbering 40,000 soldiers, 20,000 from each side. We have enough forces to protect the agreement.

South-south dialogue

– The results of the south-south dialogue that was held in Nairobi last April were not as hoped for due to the absence of the Khartoum-backed southern military leaders. How will you deal with them?

Garang: The south-south dialogue was successful and 24 southern political leaders took part in it. It is true that the government-backed military groups’ leaders were absent from this important dialogue, not because they did not want to come but because the Khartoum government prevented them from attending it. Thus the southern dialogue, which was sponsored by former Kenyan President Daniel arap Moi’s foundation, came out with a document in which the conferees underlined the need to achieve unity between the southerners and backed the comprehensive peace agreement we signed with the government and the formation of a rationale government that absorbs the southern political parties.

As to the military groups, we will organize a second workshop when the new government is formed in the south and hold a dialogue with their leaders who were absorbed in the government army but who are our brothers and from the south. We will talk to them directly and we are in contact with these leaders in one way or another. I believe that we can solve these problems with them. These are from my viewpoint simple problems. These military groups received support from Khartoum during the war but the war is now over and there is no sense in continuing this support.

I do not know against whom it will be directed. In fact, the government will not need them and will exclude them but we can absorb them in the people’s army, police, prisons, rural life forces and the civil service. There are therefore many jobs for them and we do not want to exclude them like the government did because they are the sons of our people. I therefore do not believe that the new government, of which we will be a part, will continue to support these military groups so as to start a war in the south. This will not happen at all. How can a government support military groups to fight war against that same government.

– What is your assessment of your new partners in rule, especially in implementing the agreement?

Garang: They are our partners in the comprehensive peace agreement and in its implementation. We now have a large delegation in Khartoum and there is a commission to review and draft the transitional constitution and it will come from Khartoum to Rumbek on 25 May.

Yet to receive funds

– Have you received the funds that were supposed to be given to you after signing the agreement?

Garang: We have not received these funds (50 per cent from sharing the resources) since January. It is not because the government does not want to transfer these funds because they are held in a special account in the central bank in Khartoum. There are mechanisms that have started action on this and their results will appear after few days. We are now working to establish the southern bank from inside Sudan’s central bank and these funds will be transferred to us directly once the arrangements have been completed.

Power structure in south

– Who will succeed you in Juba [seat of government in southern Sudan] when you go to Khartoum as the first vice-president and at the same time the prime minister of the southern government?

Garang: The southern government consists of a cabinet and the first vice-president can move to Khartoum and come to Juba. This is a unique arrangement in this agreement. I remember that when we were negotiating with the same government in Abuja in the early 1990s, we were talking about two presidents within a confederation, a president for the south and another for the north, and then a presidential council from the two presidents. But the settlement reached in Naivasha, Kenya, was to have a president for all of Sudan and a first vice-president in the federal government who becomes at the same time the prime minister of the southern government. The president in the new government will not make decisions alone. We will find a way for managing the office of the southern prime minister and the office of the first vice-president in Khartoum.

Darfur war crimes

– There is a Security Council resolution to try 51 persons charged with war crimes against humanity and they include officials in this government. How will you deal with this resolution?

Garang: You mean Resolution 1593 on Darfur. Yes, this resolution involves three groups. The first represents some officials in the government, the second the Janjawid militia, and the third the armed movements in Darfur. We have before us two stages. We are not at this stage part of the present government. We issued a statement to this effect when I was in Oslo and we proposed that the government and the Security Council should sit down together and solve this problem. We are not now a party in this government. But it will be a different situation once we become part of the national unity government.

The Darfur problem as well as the eastern Sudan one should supposedly be solved politically by the time the new government is formed because you cannot have peace in south Sudan and at the same time a war in Darfur and eastern Sudan. Our efforts in the transitional government will be focused on having a comprehensive and fair peace all over Sudan. Then if there are persons wanted for trial before the international court, that will not be the new government’s problem but of individuals wanted by the Security Council. These crimes were committed in Darfur and the new government that we will form has nothing to do with them.

– And will you do it if the Security Council asks the new government that will be formed in few months to hand over those involved in war crimes to the International Court of Justice?

Garang: The new government does not exist at present. Let us wait until it is formed and let us cross the bridge when we come to it. I have not crossed the bridge so far because I have not reached it. The second thing is that the new government will include other parties and therefore the decision will not be mine alone. I cannot talk about a government that has not been formed yet in the first place.

“We are in a process of change and transformation”

– Though you signed a peace agreement with the government, it is still continuing the arrests. Since you have your delegation in Khartoum, why are you not taking steps with your prospective partner to stop these arrests?

Garang: All right. We are in a process of change and transformation. The present government is not the new one that will be formed according to the peace agreement. We are now working to implement this agreement and the priority at present is to drafting the transitional constitution. We are doing this through the constitution review commission that is operating in Khartoum. We will not form the new government or the southern one if the drafting of the constitution is not finished. We have specific tasks now. Human rights must in principle be respected. I will demonstrate to you in practice that there will be no arrests because of political views and that we will respect the freedom of expression when the national unity government is formed.

– Do you believe that the SPLM has achieved its aims and vision when you signed the peace agreement? What are its negative aspects?

Garang: We certainly achieved a large part of the SPLM’s aims for whose sake we fought for 22 years. The vision was clear in diagnosing and defining Sudan’s problem and we said it was not the problem of the south. It is true that the agreement now talks about the south but there are the Nuba Mountains and the Blue Nile. There are wars in Darfur and eastern Sudan. They are talking about marginalization even in the most remote parts of the north.

Hence our aims of achieving the new Sudan were the right ones and the exercise of the self-determination right for the south in a referendum was the right thing too because unity does not come by force. There has been unity in Sudan since independence in 1956 but it was not effective because it was not a voluntary one. Unity is based on justice and equality. Therefore if the southerners chose secession, then it is their right. Even Darfur and the east should not be subjected to unity by force. Of course, we have not achieved the new Sudan but we are practically seeking to achieve this by implementing the peace agreement.

Reconciliation

– We did not see in the agreement any text mentioning truth and reconciliation concerning the violations by both sides during the war. Why?

Garang: Firstly, the people’s army was made up of the people, as its name implies. We are not an army that came from abroad. We were in a state of defending our citizens. We tried to apply what happened in South Africa, that is the truth and reconciliation commission, but the government refused. We in the south made an appeal at the south-south dialogue conference and spoke frankly and clearly about what happened during the war. There is not therefore a reason in south Sudan for not having truth and reconciliation between our people, which could be held at the national level. But the government rejected this at the Naivasha negotiations. We will continue the truth and reconciliation in the south through the southern dialogue.

– There are fears that the government in the south will be formed on a tribal basis and that southern tribes or ethnic groups will be excluded?

Garang: This is not true and there is not a single tribal side that we will exclude. The southern government will represent all the nationalities and not be from Nuer or Dinka tribes — the two largest tribes in southern Sudan. There will not be a problem or fears. Equality, justice, good governance, and human rights are our principles in the southern government that will be formed. It is the equality in social services and their distribution in all the southern areas. You will not therefore find a tribe feeling an injustice.

Rebels “did not” have any child soldiers

– There is an accusation that the people’s army used children as soldiers in the civil war. Is this true?

Garang: The people’s army did not have any children in its ranks. We even sent the children to schools. We in the People’s Army differ from the armed groups known as “guerrillas.” For example, there are now doctors and engineers in the United States. I even heard on radio about an artist from among our sons. We were the ones that sent all these sons to schools in Ethiopia because we did not have schools. Our reality differs from that of the “guerrilla” movements in Africa. We did not practice any violations against children. We reached a peace agreement and you can go to all our areas and I state positively that you will not find any children soldiers.

“We want a real transformation in Sudan”

– Let us talk about the constitution commission. There is a clause in the transitional constitution which says that any party not taking part in this commission does not have the right to participate in the elections after four years. Is this a move towards a new dictatorship?

Garang: We are opposed to dictatorial governments, whatever form they take. On our part, we said any political party that does not accept the agreement does not have the right to participate in the elections. The constitution is a fundamental part of the agreement’s implementation. If you want your rights and at the same time reject ours and if you do not accept the transitional constitution that provides you with rights and then you want to carry out a political activity through the constitution that you rejects, then does not this constitute an inconsistency.

The constitution is not a transient event but a continuing process. There are three stages. In the first one, we were able to stop the war through the peace agreement between the SPLM and the government to take us to a transitional period whose basis is a transitional constitution for forming a national unity government in Khartoum and the southern government. Therefore, the agreement included the drafting of the constitution and it is an essential part of the implementation. I am appealing to all the political forces participating in this stage because we want a real transformation in Sudan. We will not close the doors before the parties that want to distance themselves at this stage.

The second stage is to hold the elections after three or four years and at all levels, from the central parliament to the provincial ones to even the presidency. This will create a new reality in the country and we will have an elected ruling structure. The parliament that will govern the country before the elections will be appointed. The constitution can be reviewed again through the elected parliament. The third stage is the referendum on the self-determination right in the south by the end of the transitional period. If the southerners vote for unity, then the constitution can be reviewed to make it permanent. But if they vote for secession, then there will be two constitutions for two different states.

We will continue the dialogue with the parties that did not join the constitution commission and will not close the doors in their face. But they have to appreciate what we are doing because we want to change Sudan in a real way. We hope that the parties will be involved in this process because the constitution is for all the Sudanese. Do those who oppose the peace agreement want to create a division in Sudan or is it a threat to stop the peace process that was achieved after 22 years of war. I tell them there will not be another war in the south and this will absolutely not happen.

– Why do you refuse to hold the all-inclusive conference that the opposition forces are demanding?

Garang: We were among the first to call for holding the constitutional national conference and this was in 1986. We were the ones that did this first and the same parties that are demanding what you call the all-inclusive conference were the ones that rejected what we were demanding then. Suppose this conference is held, what essential issues and problems do they want to resolve? We stopped the war in the peace agreement we signed. This is a fundamental and basic issue.

We are now drafting a transitional constitution on its basis. This all-embracing conference could be held in other stages, for example, after the elections or after the referendum. Then this conference can be held if the southerners vote for unity but a different situation will be created if they vote for secession. Those demanding this conference now want to review the peace agreement. Why? Is this a solution for Sudan’s problem and will it protect the country? They have their viewpoint. The SPLM’s National Liberation Council and the National Council in Khartoum ratified this agreement and the Sudanese people will ratify the transitional constitution. This is the important stage.

There was a war in the south and now we have a total cease-fire and also in the Nuba Mountains, the Blue Nile, and Abyei. But there is a war in eastern Sudan and there is no cease-fire. There is war also in Darfur and the warring parties have not complied with the cease-fire agreement. Is this talk about reviewing an agreement that stopped the war or extinguished the fires in the country’s east and west serious? We stopped the war in the south and the three regions. What do they want after that?

“Oil was a major factor in the peace negotiations”

– Can oil replace at some stage the conflict in the south like it did in the past and local or foreign parties might become more ambitious?

Garang: The war in the south broke out in 1955 and animists fought it for 17 years. There was no oil in the south at that time. The south did not see a war for 10 years after the Addis Ababa agreement was signed in 1972. Then war broke out in 1983 and was led by the Sudanese People’s Liberation Army and we are now celebrating the 22nd anniversary of the movement’s establishment. Thus the war continued for all this time and became more complicated when oil became an additional factor in it. There were widespread violations of human rights during the war in the Upper Nile provinces where oil companies like the Canadian Talisman company and the Sudanese government deported forcibly more than 200,000 citizens from Upper Nile in addition to killing hundreds because of the oil. Half the government’s army and large groups were armed to protect the oilfields. Oil was a major factor in the peace negotiations in terms of sharing resources and oil revenues. You therefore find this factor was a fundamental point in war and in peace. But we will use oil for development and stability and I do not believe it will be a factor of conflict again in the south.

– You have a currency that is circulating in the south but it is technically speaking a very bad note and citizens have complained about it. Is it an alternative currency and what is its worth?

Garang: It is true that the new pound is printed on bad paper but these are technical matters that can be reviewed. This currency that is in circulation is not an alternative because we have an agreement with the government to print a new currency that will be used all over Sudan, but this currency has to remain in circulation until then. We printed this pound and kept the value the same as that of the pound that was in circulation under former President Ja’far Numayri. But the notes became old and not fit for circulation. Kenyan and Ugandan currencies and the Sudanese dinar are also in circulation. We printed this pound but I assert to you that we are committed to what we agreed on in the government about this matter.

“This was a war for liberation, freedom and dignity”

– Finally, after 22 years in the jungle, do you regret this war and what memories you still have about this period in addition to the frustration among the citizens for the slow implementation of the agreement?

Garang: There is nothing to make me regret it. We fought this war for 22 years for our citizens’ rights so that they can have their dignity and freedoms. Therefore this was a war for liberation, freedom and dignity. These are principles that one cannot have regrets about. We are now taking the first steps of the liberation and freedom according to the peace agreement we signed in the south, the Nuba Mountains, the Blue Nile and Abyei. This agreement achieved freedom and dignity for our people in these areas. We also fought a heroic war for 22 years. This is our last celebration in the jungle before the formation of the national unity government and the southern one.

One of the most important memories we have from these 22 years is that of our martyrs during the war. We give them the greatest salutes from this place. We have not and will not forget them and will work for the cause for which they became martyrs, that of achieving the new Sudan. As to your question about the citizens’ expectations and what you called frustration, our people are expecting much from the agreement and believe that its implementation is proceeding slowly.

There is some truth in that. We have had four out of the transitional period’s six months and only two remain. I believe that the implementation process is going ahead reasonably and we are now in the stage of drafting the transitional constitution. This is an important part in the agreement’s implementation. The national unity government will be formed after that in Khartoum as well as the government in the south.

Though the citizens’ have high expectations about the peace agreement benefits, we still have the ability to meet these aspirations.

Material provided by the BBC Monitoring Service.