US makes Sudanese problems part of interior politics – Al-Bashir
Mar 29, 2006 (KHARTOUM) — Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir hit out at the US accusing it of making Sudanese problems “part” of American politics. The president blamed his country’s frosty ties with the US on what he termed Sudan’s “independent political position”.
Speaking during an interview with Qatari Al-Jazeera satellite TV, President Al-Bashir has reiterated his opposition to the deployment of UN troops in the war-torn Darfur region saying the forces will “not solve the problem”.
He said continued reports on Darfur were “a deliberate action” by the world to maintain the crisis.
On peace in southern Sudan, President Bashir said that his government was “committed” to the peace pact adding that the authorities have set up “implementation mechanisms” to ensure to sustainability of the accord.
The following is the text of President Bashir’s interview with Qatari Al-Jazeera satellite TV on 29 March:
– We welcome you, Mr President, on Al-Jazirah Television live on the air.
[Al-Bashir] You are welcome.
[Omitted the first party of the interview related to the Arab summit in Khartoum and Arab issues]
Sudan’s organisation of the Arab League summit
– Sudan’s insistence on hosting this summit was interpreted by many as an attempt to break the anticipated embargo on Sudan and reach a satisfactory solution to the issue of Darfur. I asked you at the start of this interview if you are satisfied with the Khartoum Declaration and you answered in the affirmative. Are you satisfied with your hosting of the summit and the aims of this summit? Has Sudan gotten what it wanted with regard to Darfur?
Al-Bashir: Regarding talk about lifting the embargo on Sudan, I would like to say we have no boycott or problem with the Arab countries, praise be to God. Our relations are excellent with all Arab countries. The summit does not add much to these relations. One of the aims of hosting the summit was our celebration of the 50th anniversary of the independence of Sudan and the first anniversary of the peace agreement.
The second point is that we strongly believe in Arab-African cooperation. We serve as a bridge linking the Arab world to Africa. We are directly affected positively or negatively by the existing relations. Any Arab-African cooperation will largely be in the interest of Sudan.
It will also greatly contribute to solving Sudan’s problems.
Sudanese peace
– But Sudan found a solution to the problem of the south. It was an African and international solution. The problem of Darfur might be solved in the same way.
Al-Bashir: Regrettably, the media depicted the issue of the south as a problem between an Arab Muslim north and a black Christian south. If one looks at the formation of the fighting forces, he will discover that they do not reflect the picture some try to draw. There were large southern forces which supported the government. All the people heard about the militias.
These were one of the security problems. These were huge militias in large numbers. They represented very influential tribes in the south. These militias fought alongside the government troops. We say the problem is now over, praise be to God. That problem caused us much trouble with many African countries. They sympathized with the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM). This has ended, praise be to God. After reaching peace in the south, we have become more qualified to be an element of support for Arab-African relations.
– Before I ask about the issue of Darfur, which is perhaps a basic one, I would like to ask about the peace agreement. You said you celebrated the first anniversary of the peace agreement, but some say this agreement is still fragile, especially in view of the SPLM’s accusation that the ruling National Congress Party is evading the implementation of the agreement on the constitution of the country’s national capital.
Al-Bashir: The agreement is very clear. The agreement resulted in an interim constitution. According to the constitution, every state has the right to have its own constitution but within the framework of the federal constitution.
– But the SPLM said it is a Taleban-like constitution.
Al-Bashir: I reject such talk. If talk is about our adherence to the shariah, that will then not be something new. In the agreement we stressed that Islamic shariah is the source of legislation in northern Sudan. Khartoum is a northern state and at the same time it is the national capital. The agreement gave the capital other things. It said the representation of the south in Khartoum will be different from its representation in the rest of states.
We have reached agreement on this representation in Khartoum with the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement. The second point is that a committee will be set up to guarantee the rights of non-Muslims in Khartoum. If the people who talk want the constitution of Khartoum to be secular, there will be no need for a special committee to protect the rights of non-Muslims. This means the constitution is Islamic and the laws are Islamic. But under this Islamic constitution and these Islamic laws a committee was set up to protect the rights of non-Muslims in Khartoum.
Arab peacekeepers in Darfur
– A clause in the Khartoum Declaration, which was announced today at the conclusion of the Arab summit, speaks about Arab and African financial and logistic support but without elaboration. What does financial aid mean? How much has been earmarked in this summit to support Darfur and forces there?
Al-Bashir: With regard to financial aid, a figure was mentioned, but in internal deliberations the conferees said what is required is covering the expenses of troops for six months. This is what was mentioned in the resolution. It said the Arab countries will cover the expenses of the African forces in Darfur for six months as of 1 October.
– Without fixing a sum?
Al-Bashir: Yes without fixing a sum because there is talk about increasing the number of these troops. The number of the additional troops has not been decided. Therefore, it is difficult to fix a sum. The Arab countries pledged to pay the cost for six months.
– Logistical support is another point in this clause. Does this logistic support mean the dispatch of military or peace-keeping forces to Darfur? Egyptian President Husni Mubarak said yesterday that not a single soldier will leave Egyptian soil. What does logistic support mean?
Al-Bashir: There is talk about sending Arab African peace-keeping forces to Darfur. These are African forces from Arab African countries. These countries will decide the size of these forces.
– Which countries will send such forces?
Al-Bashir: All the Arab African countries like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco which has still not become a full African Union member, and Mauritania.
– It was reported that they will be eight countries but only three were mentioned.
Al-Bashir: These are the countries with military capabilities. There are Egyptian observers in Darfur now.
– And Libya?
Al-Bashir: The Libyans are there. These are Egypt, Libya and Algeria.
– Have these three countries agreed to send troops?
Al-Bashir: We will hold consultations with these countries.
Sudan-US ties
– We have long heard from you and from the Sudanese officials that Washington is putting pressure on Sudan. On the day the UN resolution was issued, the Sudanese officials appeared on satellite television channels to say that it was issued under US pressure. We always hear that there is US pressure. What is the problem between Sudan and the United States?
Al-Bashir: This question should be directed to the Americans. Our problems have become one of the elements of the US domestic policy. Whenever there are elections in the United States, some files become part of the election campaign. Regrettably, we have become part of the files of these election campaigns. Certainly there are political forces and forces of pressure in the Congress and in the US media which talk about Darfur. The problem is that we have become part of the internal electoral files.
– Is this the only reason? Is it the exploitation of problems?
Al-Bashir: Sudan’s geographic location is very important. We are located in the heart of Africa and overlook nine African countries and the Red Sea. Sudan has huge resources. It has oil, gas and minerals of all types. Sudan has water sources and fertile soil. All these are the object of the ambitions of others.
If we look at the map of Africa, we will find that the countries where there are big problems are the ones with large capabilities. You will find DRCongo, which has a huge wealth of gold and diamond. You will find Angola and Sudan. I recall that once a company contacted the Senegalese president offering to prospect for oil in Senegal, but he said I do not want problems; I do not want prospecting. This is one thing.
The other thing is the position of Sudan. We have an independent political position. We rejected many of the US policies in the region. We strongly rejected the invasion of Iraq. We continue to reject all calls to recognize Israel or normalize relations with it. All these create a political force targeting Sudan within the United States and for all sorts of reasons.
I will give you a simple example. Oil in Sudan was discovered by US firms. They came and prospected for oil. They dug 10 of wells. They might have defined the oil reserves.
At that time they had enough oil and did not need additional oil. They left in the hope of returning. We heard from some Americans that this is American oil and they will not leave it to the Chinese, Malaysians, and others.
Darfur crisis
– But Sudan might eventually be heading toward a crisis in relations and toward a collision or fiction, particularly in the Darfur area where the situation on the ground might lead to a political crisis between Sudan and the West in general and the United States in particular. Shall we expect such a political crisis?
Al-Bashir: We are an independent country and we will protect our independence and sovereignty. We will not accept any decision related to us if we do not approve it.
– Why are you afraid of the presence of international peacekeeping forces in Darfur?
Al-Bashir: This is because we believe that these forces will come to Darfur to stay there and not to solve the problem. The issue of Darfur began as a local traditional problem which took place there from time to time and it was solved traditionally. There was war in the south.
Therefore, they [Western powers] did not care about problems in other places. They thought that the problem or the war in the south would be enough for them to achieve all their aims in subjugating or defeating the Khartoum government and even occupying Khartoum through the rebel movement. When operations continued and the initiative was completely in the hands of the armed forces, we heard the Western countries – the United States, Britain, and their allies – talk about a cease-fire in the south for the first time.
When we began negotiations, we called for a cease-fire in the south. The strange response was fight and talk. This is so although when any mediator intervenes to resolve any armed conflict in the world, the first thing he will demand is observing a cease-fire. This happens everywhere except in Sudan.
After making sure that peace was inevitably coming to the south and that three days remained to sign the protocols which constituted the basic peace agreement, we heard that the issue of Darfur was referred to the UN Security Council. They knew that the problem there would not last long unless there was an international interference that would impose certain conditions.
We fought for 50 years in the south, but the issue was not referred to the UN Security Council. The issue of Darfur was referred to the UN Security Council only when we were about to reach peace [in the south] so that they would say after interference that they wanted peace before the end of the year. They fabricated this issue. If we sign a peace agreement in Darfur today, there will be plans for other areas. These plans are made outside Sudan.
– What next? The issue of Darfur has been referred to the UN Security Council and this is over. If the issue is solved, there will be other files in and outside Sudan.
Al-Bashir: Targeting Sudan is [word indistinct]. Therefore, we have to face our destiny and try to solve our problems by ourselves. We will not accept any solutions from abroad.
– There might be clear UN resolutions, special measures, and perhaps imposition of sanctions and intervention in Darfur with international forces. How can Sudan break out of this closed circle now?
Al-Bashir: If things are imposed on Sudan, it will have no other option but confrontation. If things are imposed on it, what can it do? It must either confront or surrender. We will not surrender. We do not know who will finally be victorious because victory comes only from God.
– The clause on Darfur in the Khartoum Declaration says no forces other than the present Arab and African forces will be sent there without Sudan’s approval. This was interpreted as leaving the door open for an imminent approval by Sudan.
Al-Bashir: This is what is required. No forces should come without our approval and we have not approved the dispatch of such forces.
– What about the future?
Al-Bashir: Also not in the future. As happened in the south, we can think of the role the UN can play once peace is reached. After agreeing on peace in the south, we agreed on a role by the UN. There are UN troops in the south now, but they are there with our approval and upon our request and authorization.
– There are big powers and a UN Security Council, which are drawing a bleak picture of the situation in Darfur. Frankly speaking, what is the true situation in Darfur now?
Al-Bashir: We do not deny that there is a crisis in Darfur. There is a problem and there are refugees and refugee camps, but maintaining the problem is a deliberate action. In April 2004, we signed the cease-fire agreement in Ndjamena. The agreement had specific clauses demanding the rebels to identify their positions and the points where forces could be assembled. Simultaneous collection of weapons in Darfur would then begin.
There was procrastination or lack of desire on the part of the international community to implement this agreement. If this agreement had been implemented and positions had been defined [changes thought]. On the first day we handed the African Union a map of all positions of the Sudanese Armed Forces. The rebels should have done the same. They should have revealed the positions of their forces. Agreement would then have been reached on specifying the forces’ assembly points.
If the forces had been assembled, security chaos in Darfur would have completely ended. If security chaos had ended, the humanitarian issue would have been solved automatically because the people evacuated the area because of the chaotic security situation. Why do we not implement the signed agreement? If we implement it, the crisis of Darfur will end.
Envoys came and visited the displaced peoples’ camps. Yes, there are the displaced. But if we implement the Ndjamena agreement, the displaced will return to their areas.
– There are reports about heavy evacuation, extreme poverty, mass killings, and gang rapes of women.
Al-Bashir: These are all lies. I tell you these are lies. There is no mass killing. Fighting was going on and that was normal. There is fighting now in Iraq. Is there fighting without death? There is no mass killing. True, some villages were attacked or burned in reaction to other actions. When someone attacks, he strikes and loots. Another will reply to him. Such incidents forced the defenceless citizens to evacuate, but some camps were attractive even to city inhabitants because the situation in the camp is better than the situation in the city.
People find free services in the camp. There are no free services in the city. There is no free medical care, free water, or free electricity. All these are available in the camp. Some people rented out their houses in the city and left for the camps.
Fate of southern Sudan
– The south will decide its future after five years. What are your expectations?
Al-Bashir: Everything is possible. This depends on what can be accomplished during this period of time. If we convince the southern citizen during this period that he is a citizen enjoying all his citizenship rights, we expect the majority to say yes to unity. If we and the brothers in the southern government and southern states fail to run the south in a manner that convinces the southern citizen that he got his rights, this might be a cause for separation.
We believe that most of the southerners are for unity. Some people, however, say no. When I visited the south – Bahr al-Ghazal and Rumbek, which was the capital of the former rebel movement – I found that all people in Rumbek were for unity.
– But you said things may change in five years. What is your strategy to persuade the southerners to stay and voluntarily vote for unity with Sudan?
Al-Bashir: We need the assistance of the international community and Arab world during this period of time in order to provide the southern citizens with services and development projects, which will allow them to make a positive decision. This is our programme and this is our effort.
– How capable is Sudan of doing this if we exclude the Southern Sudan Reconstruction Fund that was decided by the Arabs?
Al-Bashir: We, of course, have the pledge made in Oslo to extend 4.5bn dollars in aid for development and services projects. If we receive these funds and carry out the set plans and programmes, there will be unity, God willing. We cannot carry out these plans depending on our capabilities no matter how large they are.
The south is a vast area and there has been no development there for 50 years and 50 years ago we were under colonialism. Colonialism did not spend money to develop the country. We have a vast area that needs huge efforts. Many of the displaced in the north or the refugees who were in neighbouring Ethiopia, Kenya, and Uganda had services available to them in the refugee camps. If they return to the south today, they will not find these services there. Therefore, unless we provide these services, there will certainly be a problem.
– What role do the Arabs have to play, especially with regard to the Southern Sudan Reconstruction Fund and the issue of extending social and financial support?
Al-Bashir: The Arab brothers have now pledged to do so. Some countries began to individually hold contacts and render services and develop the south. These are individual efforts by countries. We need to integrate these efforts. We want to combine our efforts with the Arab and international efforts. If they fulfil a considerable part of their commitments – we do not expect all commitments to be fulfilled – we will certainly be able to accomplish a great deal.
– Is there then dissatisfaction with the Arab role in rebuilding the south?
Al-Bashir: We certainly have not tested this yet. They promised and I expect much from them, God willing.
– What about the northern opposition? Some say it is absent while others say it is constrained. How is the government’s relationship with this opposition?
Sudanese opposition
Al-Bashir: Most political forces are represented in the national unity government. If we talk about the opposition, we will find that the opposition parties now are the Communist Party, Hassan Al-Turabi’s People’s Congress Party, and Sadiq al-Mahdi’s Ummah Party. These are the opposition parties. They are now working as an opposition and they have their media, including newspapers. They have their contacts, too. There is no problem. They also exercise political work.
– What about coexistence between the government and the SPLM within the government?
Al-Bashir: We in the government have a big problem. The problem is that some people sometimes make statements but their statements are blown out of proportion by the media and [words indistinct] the People’s Movement. We work according to timetables on the implementation of the agreement. True, there was some delay in the implementation of some clauses of the agreement, but the delay was due to the fact that there was a period of six months before the start of the transitional period.
The agreement was signed on 9 January 2005 and the transitional period began on 9 July. Much work was supposed to be done during this six-month period before the start of the transitional period. That work should have been done through joint committees between us and the Movement. The committees were supposed to come to Khartoum to do this work and finish it before the start of the transitional period, but the Movement did not send its delegations.
Many people who did not know about the details of the agreement thought the delay was from the government. However, when we sit with them and explain why this was not done, they become convinced of our opinion. Some people get wrong information and begin to talk on the basis of this information. The people have heard many say that the government has not given the south its oil rights. We said we would not respond in the media. We asked officials in the federal government and the government of the south to come and present to us at the presidency a report on the implementation of a special agreement on oil revenues.
Comprehensive Peace Agreement prospects
– Mr President, you may not respond to the news media or statements made in the media, but this is a real situation now. There are statements and sometimes counter statements or no statements at all. I recall as an example the latest statement by the SPLM on the eve of the summit or the first day of the summit. This suggests that this agreement, as I said a short while ago, is fragile and about to fail.
Al-Bashir: It is not fragile. The agreement has full details and we are committed to it. Some may try to interpret some parts, but we have implementation mechanisms.
Regarding the constitution, the Justice Ministry is the point of reference. It decides if the constitution agrees or disagrees with the federal constitution. If there is disagreement, we have the Council of States, which is the upper house. This is also a point of reference. We have the commission in charge of monitoring and following up the implementation of the agreement.
Accordingly, several quarters are involved in this agreement. If people disagree, they will go back to them and they will decide.
– Some say this agreement lacks a popular base and national accord and call for a national conference to discuss this issue.
Al-Bashir: The national conference some political forces are calling for is not meant to create a base for this agreement. The base of this agreement is complete. Most people and political parties and forces fully support the agreement. Some political forces, however, say that this is a bilateral agreement and that the distribution of powers is unfair because it gives 80 per cent of power to the parties signing the agreement and these are the National Congress Party and Sudan People’s Liberation Movement. They want a new conference in order to cancel many points in this agreement.
We do not want to violate the agreement. The 1972 agreement was excellent and well accepted. It achieved real peace in Sudan, but violating it took us 20 years back to war. It was the one which sowed some sort of suspicion in the minds of the southerners that we did not abide by agreements. Therefore, this agreement came with all details. The reason was past suspicion.
Sudanese identity
– Mr President, you are now the president of the current Arab summit session. Some say you have solved the problem of Sudan in an African manner and there is now an effort to approach the Arabs to help solve the problem of Darfur. Where is Sudan heading? Is it heading toward Africa or the Arab world?
Al-Bashir: Sudan is an Arab-African country. We reject dividing Africa into Arab and black Africa or north and south of the desert. We are now talking about a united Africa and an African Union representing all African countries. According to this concept, we find that most of the Arabs are inside Africa.
Therefore, there can be no talk about Africa without the Arabs. Consequently, one cannot talk about an African unity without having ties with the Arabs. The Arabs outside Africa are linked to the Arabs in Africa. Therefore, all Arabs in and outside Africa are strongly linked to Africa. Our role is strengthening Arab-African cooperation in the interest of Africa and the Arabs.
– Sudanese President Omar Hasan al-Bashir and president of the current Arab summit, which ended a few hours ago, we wish all success. Thank you very much for receiving us and for your patience with all our questions.
Al-Bashir: Thank you very much.
(Jazeera TV/BBCMS/ST)