BBC Hardtalk interview with Hilde Johnson, the UN’s Special Rep in South Sudan
Tuesday 7, 2012 (LONDON) – On 8 February the BBC’s Hardtalk interviewed Hilde Johnson, the UN’s Special Representative in South Sudan. This is the verbatim of interview.
Zeinab Badawi: South Sudan became independent last July after a five decade war with the north but secession has brough neither peace nor prosperity despite the countries vast oil welath. Hostilities between it and it’s northern neighbour have the two teetering on the brink of war and ethnic clashes and rivalries Soithern tribes have left thousands dead. My guest today is the UN head of mission for South Sudan Hilde Johnson. Is the country already effectively a failed state? Hilde Johnson, welcome to Hard Talk.
Hilde Johnson: Thank you.
ZB: How far are the problems of South Sudan a result of a failure in the country’s leadership.
HJ: South Sudan is not a failed state. South Sudan is the world’s youngest nation it got its independence just six months ago so before we start making judgements about the country and about it’s functions we need to give them a little bit of time to get their house in order and to perform.
ZB: But you acknowledge that there are problems.
HJ: Nobody had any illusions there would not be problems. This is the world’s youngest nation five lost decades. Everything is missing: health, education infrastructure, governance institutions were just recently estabklished clearly there will behuge challenges.
ZB: It’s true in a way that they ahve only been in existence for six months but but they signed the Comprehensive Peace Agreement the CPA in January 2005 with Khartoum which means that they have effectively – the ruling SPLM – has effectively been governing South Sudan as an autonomous state for six years thye have received $17 billion in money mostly from oil revenues ad some aid that’s a really really big birth right and you can’t see any evidence of that money in the country.
HJ: Well firstly, the aid money left aside, because that never has gone to government coffers around $2 billion dollars per year, which is not different from other poor country’s in the world, which is catching up for decades of loss.
ZB: Most of that $17 billion is from oil revenue that has gone directly to the South.
HJ: Sure absolutely its about $12-$13 [billion in oil revenue]
ZB: That’s a lot of money.
HJ: Yes it’s around $2 billion a year.
ZB: You live in Juba. Lots of people have been to Juba. I’ve been to Juba. You know perfectly well that you can’t see the evidence of that $12 billion that South Sudan has had since 2005.
HJ: I think you actually can see it Juba.
ZB: In Juba, what about the rest of the country?
HJ: It’s much more challenging to see it in the rest of the country. And let me give you three ballpark figures. The number of children since 2005 in school have doubled. We have seen measles and polio actually not happen there have been campaigns and they have been successful. We’ve seen also 6,000km of roads, however dirt roads, be constructed thinks have been moving in the right direction.
ZB: Let me give you some figures now: 100km of paved road, not just the dirt road, in a country the size of france.
HJ: Well it shows the challenges. There were 5km of paved road when the CPA negotiations were completed
ZB: Well you gave me some figures. Let me give you some more now. 10% of children in South Sudan complete eduction 27% of the adult population is literate, which means the fast majority of adults in SOuth Sudan are illiterate, people can’t afford basic goods and so on so why do you think this is happening? Give us you view that despite the fact there is all this money there are these dismal statistics.
HJ: It is no doubt that building an eduction system making sure that a whole population becomes literate and numeric making sure that health services are delivred in a country of this size the size of France nothing was there before is a huge challenge. I fully acknowledge we could ahve seen more things happening in the last six years but we have seen quite a lot happening and more needs to happen now and now is where the test really comes for the South Sudanese government. Now is when they need to show that they are running their own country and they are able to deliver services to the people and not least that the resources has to go to them has to go to really deliverables to the people in the rural areas.
ZB: The resources have to go them so can you spell it out or maybe I will help you. Is it because of corruption and cronyism where 70% of South Sudan’s budget goes on official salaries and military spending when Robest Zellic the president of the World Bank says. He said this in December last year “I want to note one particular problem facing South Sudan: corruption whether it takes the form of bribes at checkpoints or officials taking cuts from deals. Corruption gnaws away at the political systems and its the people of South Sudan that pay the price. Corruption is a huge problem.
HJ: No absolutely and I can give you one very good reason why. We have a situation where I do not think anyone has experienced going from a guerrilla movement to a government receiving billions of dollars in a short period o time without any system. No ministry of finance. No Central bank. No actually commercial bank to speak of and the money came. It is clear that leads to corruption however we are also seeing a situation where the government is now taking measures to deal with that and root out corruption.
ZB: Is it really? That is not what the people of South Sudan are saying.
HJ: Really there needs to be much more progress but there have been important decisions in the last few months one South Sudan has decided and they have committed to joining the extractive industries transparency initiative this is an initiative that is related to countries that really want their natural resources to be used for the benefit of the people with transparency and responsibility.
Secondly the president has come with two decrees lately, which shows that he is committed to move this agenda forward very tough decisions are coming down the pipeline. We have to see them implemented in full but there are very strong signals coming.
ZB: You know people in South Sudan say yes there is an anti corruption commission and we hear statements made from President Salva Kiir leader of the SPLM movement but really nothing much is really done to tackle.
HJ: We need to see much stronger action. That is why I am listing the actions that we now witnessing.
ZB: Do you tell him yourself when you see him?
HJ: Absolutely the president has out with extremely strong statements on this.
ZB: But its not statements its actions you need to see.
HJ: