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Sudan’s justice minister, US official discuss legal reforms

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Abdel Bari (C) poses with Tibor Nagy (L) and Donald Booth in Washington on 6 Feb 2020 (State Dept photo)
February 7, 2020 (KHARTOUM) - Tibor Nagy U.S. Assistant Secretary for African affairs Thursday discussed legal reforms in Sudan with Justice Minister Nasr al-din Abdel Bari.

"Good meeting with Sudanese Minister of Justice Abdel Bari yesterday. We spoke about Sudan’s plans for legal reform," said Nagy in a tweet on Friday.

Also, he added that the meeting discussed the ongoing investigation by the independent investigation commission into the bloody attack on the pro-democracy sit-in on 3 June 2019.

The discussion come within the framework of a process by the US administration to rescind Sudan’s designation as a state sponsor of terrorism.

At the end of January, Abdel Bari deposited several bills proposing to amend or repeal articles from the criminal law.

The submitted proposals include the abolition of an related to the “Apostasy” and the adoption of a new article banning it in the future.

The proposals also included the deletion of the punishment of flogging, prohibition of the death penalty for children under the age of (18) years, and allowing non-Muslims to drink and trade with alcohol.

Nagy concluded his statement by recalling "the importance of establishing the Transitional Legislative Council".

The transitional government said awaiting the signing of a peace deal with the rebel groups before the formation of the transitional parliament.

(ST)

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  • 8 February 13:20, by Fathi

    "allowing non-Muslims to drink and trade with alcohol"
    Well then why not allow weed too? We can grow it in the El Gezira scheme. That’s what the masters are doing in America now. Maybe we can sell some of our fertile land to America, like we did for the arabs, so they can cultivate some weed.

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    • 8 February 21:03, by ThaGoblin

      Because it shouldn’t have been banned in the first place. We non Muslim sudanese have been forced to follow Islamic law. Why does it bother you if non Muslims trade alcohol?

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    • 8 February 21:09, by ThaGoblin

      AND to answer your weed issue, sudan farms weed in areas far larger then algzera scheme. A huge portion of sudanese both young and old consume weed as well as alcohol. Whether you like it or not people are going to keep doing so no matter how much you try

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    • 8 February 21:18, by ThaGoblin

      Instead of pushing these consumers to the shadows of an underground economy, where you don’t earn a single pound from tax, you fund criminal organizations, hurt your citizens buy forcing them to buy below standard products, you can regulate these substances to fund huge media campaigns and recovery centers.

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    • 8 February 21:24, by ThaGoblin

      We are tired of the way the old generation handled things. These old ways have proved their failure over the years with citizens baring the burnt. We want a modern nations where logic comes before our backward mentality.

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    • 8 February 21:31, by ThaGoblin

      I’m not just rambling from abroad btw, the old regime has strangled the youth from entertainment let it be clubs, unisex activities, art, etc. You know the results? The youth didn’t become more god loving. They are now full blown drug addicts. Pills and weed is the alternative.

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      • 9 February 02:58, by Fathi

        ThaGoblin,

        I intend to respond to this within the next hour.

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        • 9 February 03:42, by Fathi

          First of all let’s get something straight. The Sudanese people didn’t vote for sharia law. It was implemented in the 1980’s by a military dictator who came to power by military coup. I wasn’t advocating for Islamic law in my statement. I thought that was clear since I didn’t mention any of the other laws mentioned. In fact, I even asked why not weed too...

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          • 9 February 03:58, by Fathi

            I also never said it bothers me that non muslims drink or trade in alcohol. But since you brought up islamic laws, let’s talk about it. Alcohol consumption and marketing isn’t just an islamic issue, it’s also a societal issue. There were also alcohol prohibition laws in America that were passed into law by certain Christian groups.

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            • 9 February 04:23, by Fathi

              I thought it was clear that I was trolling about El Gezira scheme. I even said let’s sell our land to America so they can grow the weed for us.
              I was also taking a jab at the idiots who sold our fertile land to the arabs so they can farm in our land. We sold a million acres to Saudi alone. We should’ve farmed the land, sold the final products to the arabs, so we get more $ & lower unemployment

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              • 9 February 04:33, by Fathi

                I had 3 issues when I wrote my original post.
                1) I mentioned America specifically because we shouldn’t have to discuss our legal reforms with America. I believe America is infringing upon Sudan’s sovereignty. If Sudan’s laws violate the man-made UN human rights laws, then the conversation should be discussed with the UN not US.

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                • 9 February 04:42, by Fathi

                  1 continued) If America is sincere, why doesn’t it discuss these laws with their ally Saudi Arabia? Sudan’s government is clearly under pressure due to the economic crisis which is partially due to US sanctions under the SST. I fear Sudan is capitulating to all US demands in order to remove those sanctions. I also believe the US is moving goal posts when making these false promises.

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                  • 9 February 04:46, by Fathi

                    1 continued) Legal reforms should be made by Sudanese due to believing in the laws, not because the US said so. Otherwise, a future dictator could repeal those laws and Sudanese people will be complacent with the decision. We should know why this is the right move for us, without foreign governments influencing our judiciary branch.

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                    • 9 February 05:00, by Fathi

                      2) My second issue/question is that legal reforms indicate that we don’t have sharia law, so why does the law regarding alcohol only apply to non-muslims?

                      3) No, you didn’t answer my question about weed. I was candid when I asked about weed. If we are going to legalize alcohol, then why not include weed too.

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                      • 9 February 05:04, by Fathi

                        3 continue) Shit, we could probably export a good amount too. We could easily market it. Forget Afghan Kush or the so-called "O.G. Kush", we reside in ancient Kush.

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                        • 9 February 05:16, by Fathi

                          In response to your statements, the question is why did we legalize it? Did we legalize it to reduce overall use, for substance safety, reduce crime, tax it for financial incentive, for entertainment, for religious freedom?
                          If it was to reduce use, then they should’ve sited the studies that support that.

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                          • 9 February 05:27, by Fathi

                            If they legalized it for the reasons that you mentioned, then they should’ve legalized more than just alcohol ...

                            Do you have any research articles or studies to support your claims that "a huge portion of sudanese both young and old consume weed as well as alcohol"?

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                            • 9 February 05:33, by Fathi

                              Don’t get me wrong, I went to visit recently and heard some people using weed & pills. It wasn’t like that a couple years ago. I’ve even heard that some in the government were pushing it. Instead of blaming the rise due to it being illegal, couldn’t it be due to something else?

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                              • 9 February 05:43, by Fathi

                                Could it be due to corruption in security forces who are pushing it? I’ve heard that is the case. Could the rise be due to the high unemployment, which led to feelings of depression, which is associated with substance abuse?

                                There are a number of reasons for the rise in substance abuse and legalizing it will likely not reduce use.

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                                • 9 February 05:52, by Fathi

                                  Forget alcohol, how about we just legalize all drugs then? lol

                                  Yes, I know people will use substances whether I like it or not. Will normalizing substance use improve the situation though?

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                                  • 9 February 05:56, by Fathi

                                    Legalizing substances for financial incentive from taxes is unethical.
                                    If the goal is to use that money for media campaigns and recovery centers. Then why don’t we keep prohibiting it while still funding media campaigns and recovery centers? We could also allocate more $ to the government’s drug enforcement agency if the peace deal goes through.

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                                    • 9 February 06:03, by Fathi

                                      There are entertainment activities that are also unisex but aren’t clubs. There aren’t more entertainment activities in Sudan because there is a lack of money due to sanctions, corruption, & never ending civil wars.

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                                      • 9 February 06:12, by Fathi

                                        You act like the so-called islamic laws the dictators introduced were intended to make the youth more god fearing. They weren’t. They were introduced to stifle dissent and mask their corruption & failures. They would easily pay a corrupt sheikh to pass a bogus fatwa or interpret things in a way that pleased them.

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                                        • 9 February 06:28, by Fathi

                                          For example, if we had islamic law we wouldn’t be 60 billion in debt from all these loans. Islam forbids interest. We took many loans with crazy interest rates. Now tell me. Have you heard these corrupt sheikhs complaining about that? No. How about the closure of churches? No. How about torture? No. How about corruption? No. How about all the murders? No. I can go on for days.

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                                          • 9 February 06:33, by Fathi

                                            We muslim & non-muslim sudanese have been forced to follow a corrupt system that was referred to as islamic law. In reality, it had nothing to do with islam. We all know the elections were a lie. The only reason we had them is so Bashir could tell the international community he wasn’t a dictator.

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                                            • 9 February 06:52, by ThaGoblin

                                              Fathi
                                              Okay i respect your views and sarcasm lol. I assumed you were against the adjustment of laws concerning non-muslims because you mentioned the legalization of other substances as well.

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                                            • 9 February 07:01, by ThaGoblin

                                              you mentioned that sudanese never voted for the implementation of islamic law if was forced. the only reason that certain dictator was able to implement these laws was that it was widely accepted within the elite arab society. That was a regional issue with other countries leaning to the conservative side. And from a nonmuslims perspective i wouldnt of had a problem

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                                            • 9 February 07:08, by ThaGoblin

                                              cont
                                              If i didnt involve non believers. Yes i can agree that the gov implemented these measures for their own benefit. But after decades under islamic rule, mentalities have been altered and a large section of the population have known nothing else.

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                                            • 9 February 07:17, by ThaGoblin

                                              yes youre right regarding the christian groups etc, and i dont agree with their views either. The fact that laws are governed by the views of a religion is mad. These issues should have been studied accordingly to figure out how to get the population to use but not abuse.

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                                            • 9 February 07:23, by ThaGoblin

                                              Yes our sovereignty is a red line regarding the USs involvement. who gave them the opportunity to treat Sudan like a little child? we did by failing to govern ourselves properly. yes politics is cunning but does saudi have protracted civil wars, poverty, famines, and debt like we do? We gave them that opportunity so we cant blame them.

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                                            • 9 February 07:32, by ThaGoblin

                                              2) youre wrong when you say sharia law doesn’t apply anymore. Yes its been on the low lately but we still see the morality police roaming around, arresting drinkers and evening sentencing them for flogging. This happened just 2 weeks ago. like i said earlier decades under islamic law, empowered the conservatives and even if we get the chance to create out own legal system based on the current

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                                            • 9 February 07:40, by ThaGoblin

                                              cont
                                              based on the current ideology demography not much change will happen. This isnt the sudan that existed post independence. People have been oppressed for so long they now think its the right thing to do. There are universal secular laws that have to be implemented whether the majority like it or not. why? to undo the damage that has been done.

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                                            • 9 February 07:49, by ThaGoblin

                                              3) youre right about the legalization of other substances that are deemed safe for usage(not abuse, abusing anything will harm you). However hard drugs that directly affect your nervous system shouldnt since they dont signal to your body to release dopamine they replace the dopamine. People who abuse soft substances are usually facing emotional issues etc. for example snuff or cigarettes.

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                                            • 9 February 08:01, by ThaGoblin

                                              Regarding your request for scientific evidence, unfortunately society is so mentally inverted theyd never conduct such studies. But take my word for it, here in khartoum the people who dont participate are considered a minority. what do you think sudanese do on weekends? drink coffee by the nile every week?

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                                            • 9 February 08:08, by ThaGoblin

                                              why would you burn a hole in your pocket to fight something that wont end? so youre saying use the budget freed up from war to fund media campaigns recovery centers and fight these substances? remember its an ongoing problem, and your costs are only going to rise. yet you can fund it from its own tax returns. so if more people use the more money freed up.

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                                            • 9 February 08:15, by ThaGoblin

                                              Yes these unisex activities have just popped up after the revolution. But try go for swimming, billiards, sports, or even just having them over at your own apt without facing issues. im not talking about the nice international community spots where you pay for your freedom. im talking regular neighborhood type of activities.

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                                            • 9 February 08:22, by ThaGoblin

                                              even after laws are adjusted a shadow of conservative prejudice hangs over you. like it or not we are social and sexual, beings. Take one of them away and you create many fractures or imbalances in society. imagine the current broken gen. raised under decades of oppressive rule, do you think they will be able to choose whats best for them?

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                                              • 9 February 11:19, by Fathi

                                                Thanks. I understand where you’re coming from. Personally, I live in a society that idolizes and promotes stripers but frown upon a woman that covers herself. A couple hundred years ago, a society that thought like that would’ve been considered backwards.

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                                                • 9 February 11:47, by Fathi

                                                  As times change, societal views can also change.

                                                  You said "There are universal secular laws that have to be implemented whether the majority like it or not." The universal secular laws, did they drop from the sky? No, they were decided by men.

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                                                  • 9 February 11:51, by Fathi

                                                    Keep in mind that the men that created these laws were colonizing almost all of Africa, which is why we didn’t participate. It also speaks to who they view as human and what are rights.
                                                    By universal secular laws, I’m assuming you’re referring to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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                                                    • 9 February 12:31, by Fathi

                                                      Without God, what is right/wrong or good/evil changes depending on the time you live.

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                                                      • 9 February 12:34, by Fathi

                                                        We shouldn’t rush to adopt other people’s view of rights because at the end of the day it can be influenced by their values, interests or agenda.
                                                        Despite the oppression of Sudanese society, I do believe they are intellectually capable of determining what is best for them.

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                                                        • 9 February 12:40, by Fathi

                                                          You said "does saudi have protracted civil wars, poverty, famines, and debt like we do?"
                                                          That is irrelevant to your point because we were talking about human rights. If the US truly believes in their human rights, then they should pressure Saudi Arabia just as much as they are Sudan.

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                                                          • 9 February 12:45, by Fathi

                                                            Being rich or successful shouldn’t allow them to be held to a different standard. If the US wanted to, they could start a civil war in Saudi in a month, if not less. The US could easily divide Saudi and carve out the oil rich shia region. That would lead to poverty, famines, and debt like us. Is that when human rights should be introduced?

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                                                            • 9 February 12:46, by Fathi

                                                              That scenario sounds familiar huh?

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                                                              • 9 February 12:51, by Fathi

                                                                Yes, the elite arab society accepted it. It wasn’t accepted by all Sudanese society. In fact, al-hilu SPLM-N leader is muslim and is the biggest advocate for a secular state.

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                                                                • 9 February 12:55, by Fathi

                                                                  I am not against reforming our legal system. I believe our legal system should be accommodating for all the people of Sudan and it should be guided by values and beliefs of the Sudanese people, including Christianity, animism, and traditional African religions. We need a more tolerant and accepting society.

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                                                                  • 9 February 13:00, by Fathi

                                                                    Sudanese people didn’t vote for those laws. Many spoke out against them and were executed for it. The one thing I fault the Sudanese people with is allowing themselves to grow numb and complacent with all the injustice.

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                                                                    • 9 February 13:04, by Fathi

                                                                      The corruption and civil wars led to the poverty war and famine. Don’t forget that every single country neighboring Sudan (except egypt to my knowledge) fueled our civil wars and made Sudan less stable. Don’t forget the sanctions that crippled our economy.

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                                                                      • 9 February 13:09, by Fathi

                                                                        So, no I don’t believe the US should have the right to treat Sudan like a little child. International isolation should’ve been decided by the international community not by one country. When 1 country has be been given that much power by international community, it can lead to exploitation and abuse.

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                                                                        • 9 February 13:11, by Fathi

                                                                          "youre wrong when you say sharia law doesn’t apply anymore." I was saying that sharia isn’t the basis used to pass laws anymore so why not legalize drugs.

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                                                                          • 9 February 13:13, by Fathi

                                                                            "However hard drugs that directly affect your nervous system shouldnt since they dont signal to your body to release dopamine they replace the dopamine. People who abuse soft substances are usually facing emotional issues etc. for example snuff or cigarettes."

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                                                                            • 9 February 13:21, by Fathi

                                                                              Both hard and soft drugs impact the nervous system. Emotional issues are associated with abuse for both hard and soft substances. I’m assuming you’re basically referring to long lasting negative impact. Chronic consumption of almost all of them are associated with medical conditions.

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                                                                              • 9 February 13:23, by Fathi

                                                                                I don’t live in Khartoum but recently went to visit. I definitely wouldn’t say the majority are abusing substances.

                                                                                I found an article you might be interested in.
                                                                                https://enactafrica.org/research/trend-reports/is-sudan-a-new-hub-for-captagon-trafficking

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                                                                                • 9 February 13:27, by Fathi

                                                                                  I’m not saying spend all the money on campaigns and recovery centers. I don’t view it as burning a hole in my pocket. It is more like investing in my people’s well being.

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                                                                                  • 9 February 13:29, by Fathi

                                                                                    I was in Port Sudan 2 years ago and noticed girls playing billards by the sea walk. Yes, there weren’t many but there were some.

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                                                                                    • 9 February 13:33, by Fathi

                                                                                      Bringing a girl over at your own apt without facing problems is frowned upon due to what it could lead to.

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                                                                                      • 9 February 13:35, by Fathi

                                                                                        I get that we are social and sexual beings and we have desires. Not giving into your desires helps develop self-control. Consistently giving in to your can make you a slave to your desires. That’s not that liberting is it?

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                                                                                        • 9 February 13:43, by Fathi

                                                                                          Not to mention the possible STDs that could lead to be transmitted throughout society. Some STDs aren’t curable, some can cause cancer, and some can kill you. Yes, safe sex can decrease the chances and should be taught even if society disagrees with the action. Wouldn’t it be better if society promoted abstinence while also promoting precautions while not normalizing?

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                                                                                          • 9 February 13:48, by Fathi

                                                                                            "A free man is a slave as long as he’s covetous."

                                                                                            Despite all the oppressive rule, I still believe the Sudanese people are still some of the most authentic, honest, and honorable people in the world. Yes, a people like that should not be undermined because they’re capable of of choosing what is best for them.

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                                                                                            • 9 February 14:07, by Fathi

                                                                                              I was trying to give both sides of the argument. I don’t believe it it’s as simple as it seems on the surface. As I said above, I believe the laws should be more inclusive for all Sudanese society. I don’t believe in banning religion from political parties like al hilu said. Religion influences what we value but shouldn’t be used to oppress/persecute others.

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:00, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                yes what you said is very true, but you mentioned that society’s values change with time and these universal laws were drafted after the peak of colonization.

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:06, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                youre very right about saudis case and i agree since politics is an evil trade. But the fact that the saudis got to a point where they stabilized proves they are playing it right. The US doesnt love saudi they have mututal benefits. we couldve done the same or even gone further but unfortunately decided to fight an impossible war against a superpower because of our stupid pride, hurting ourselves

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:17, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                i agree that the US isnt pure hearted but you cant expect otherwise lol. everyones init for their own benefit. regarding the drugs you cant compare cocaine to weed when it comes to effects on dopamine receptors. youre not going to notice the people consuming drugs like junkies in the states but pre-revolution we had students overdosing on a daily basis. algeref, aldaim, buri, azhari, gabra, ryad

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:26, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                these are just a few districts in khartoum that have major drug problems. a major portion of the youth are dealing drugs after getting hooked. some are even reaching a point where they’re quitting school. yes amphetamine pills(laga cap etc) are now present, but Tramadol, pregabalin, tegradol and clonezepam are even bigger hits inthe market.

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:31, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                portsudan was always known for being a liberal state regarding islamic laws, not exactly sure why tho but might be because of the volumes of tourists. And yet they have the drug problem undercontrol, do you notice the difference?

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:38, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                yes i understand bringing girls to an apt sounds like its all about sex but that wasnt my point. having someon over shouldnt automatically mean sex. At the same time youre making it seem like sex isnt as fundamental eating food. studies have proved sex is perfectly natural and healthy. and abstaining especially for men can lead to negative effects.

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                                                                                              • 9 February 22:48, by ThaGoblin

                                                                                                theres a higher risk of catching disease from food here then sex. hep A B C, typhoid, cholera, that peanut mold thats serious. they all cause cancer but doesnt mean people should stop eating lol. anyway i get your point, and i appreciate your input tbh. i really love talking to people with different perspectives, really eye opening. Enjoy!

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                                                                                                • 11 February 08:36, by Fathi

                                                                                                  I’m sorry for the late response. I was busy the past couple of days.

                                                                                                  The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted in the UN on December 10th, 1948.

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                                                                                                  • 11 February 08:46, by Fathi

                                                                                                    I wouldn’t say they’re playing it right but I get your point. Saudis get to be exploited less, are allowed to buy weapons, and have political support by siding with the US. Don’t forget they saved the US dollar after Nixon stopped backing the dollar with gold.
                                                                                                    Going back to my point, the US doesn’t really care about human rights as evidenced by their relationship with Saudi

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                                                                                                    • 11 February 08:51, by Fathi

                                                                                                      "i agree that the US isnt pure hearted but you cant expect otherwise lol. Everyones init for their own benefit."

                                                                                                      I’m not expecting otherwise. I’m just calling out the hypocrisy. US reasoning for infringing on other nation’s sovereignty isn’t sincere. I call it out so people stop using it as justification for their actions.

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                                                                                                      • 11 February 08:57, by Fathi

                                                                                                        "regarding the drugs you cant compare cocaine to weed when it comes to effects on dopamine receptors."

                                                                                                        I’m not saying their effects are the same but it does impact dopamine receptors. At what point do you draw the line? How about all the negative effects of alcohol? If anything, I believe if you’re going to legalize alcohol you should legalize weed.

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                                                                                                        • 11 February 09:02, by Fathi

                                                                                                          "youre not going to notice the people consuming drugs like junkies in the states but pre-revolution we had students overdosing on a daily basis"
                                                                                                          I disagree. In America, we have something called the opioid epidemic. It mainly impacts white people so they decided to view addiction as a disease not a crime so all the whites don’t end up in jail like black people during crack epidemic.

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                                                                                                          • 11 February 09:07, by Fathi

                                                                                                            People addicted to opioids sometimes end up abusing heroin. I was working in the emergency department in a rural part of NY 2 years ago during undergrad. I would say we had at least 2 patients a night that had overdosed on heroin. Half of them had started off using opioids but switched to heroin when their rx wouldn’t be refilled.

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                                                                                                            • 11 February 09:12, by Fathi

                                                                                                              In regard to pre-revolution Sudan, I believe the increase in substance abuse is due to being depressed and hopeless about the future. I believe if the people had hope and a legitimate opportunity to be employed, then the rate of substance abuse would’ve been significantly less.

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                                                                                                              • 11 February 09:15, by Fathi

                                                                                                                I would say port sudan is slightly more liberal. At the same time, the US is significantly more liberal yet there’s a huge drug problem. Either way correlation doesn’t = causation.

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                                                                                                                • 11 February 09:25, by Fathi

                                                                                                                  Sex isn’t fundamental like food. You can live without sex not food. Many people in the world wait until marriage. Abstaining from sex, even if you’re a male, is far less risky than having multiple partners. Many male athletes would abstain from sex due to the mental & physical benefits.

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                                                                                                                  • 11 February 09:29, by Fathi

                                                                                                                    "theres a higher risk of catching disease from food here then sex."

                                                                                                                    I believe that supports the point I’m making. The diseases can spread through having sex. So, if everyone becomes sexually active with multiple partners, the diseases will spread. Eventually, you’ll have higher risk of catching disease from sex rather than from food.

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                                                                                                                    • 11 February 09:33, by Fathi

                                                                                                                      I’m sorry if I came off as argumentative. I just wanted to expand your perspective by providing a different point of view. I’m probably not going to check this article again, but it was nice talking to you.

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S. Korea supports UN communities building resilience project in Sudan’s Blue Nile 2019-09-09 09:26:41 UNDP Sudan September 5, 2019 (KHARTOUM) - An agreement was signed on 5th of September between the Korean Ambassador, His Excellency. Lee Ki-Seong and Dr. Selva Ramachandran, Resident (...)

Sudanese lawyers and Human rights defenders back calls for civil rule 2019-04-26 10:22:06 Press statement by 55 Sudanese lawyers and Human rights defenders on Sudan Sit-in and Peaceful Protest Khartoum -24/04/2019 We, the undersigned (55) Sudanese lawyers and human rights defenders, (...)

South Sudan’s Lafon youth condemn killings of civilians by Pari community 2019-04-03 21:54:29 Press Statement on the Fighting between Pari/ Pacidi and Lotuko/Lokiri on 24/3/2019 Release by The Lafon County Youth Union: We, the Lafon County Youth Union hereby condemn the atrocities and (...)


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